Kabir Deb In Conversation With Arundhati Ghosh On Her Book All Our Loves: Journeys With Polyamory In India

Hello Arundhati! Congratulations on the publication and success of your book. So, my first question is a general one. What is the book about and where does its voice lie? And why is it essential in the present time for India?

I have led the life of a polyamorous person myself for a very long time. And about ten years ago, I started writing publicly about it on Facebook in the form of short posts only to see what people feel about this whole concept, and I’m sure there are many people like me or even monoamorous people who would be curious. I also knew that there would be abuses and all kinds of hateful stuff from bringing this up (even though it being so normal). But what was beautiful is that while I was writing about polyamory, many people started to respond to it in a very positive way with the right kind of engagement. Even sharing the negative traits of the practice involved a very good kind of engagement. 

Then one thing led to another, I did an article for Deccan Herald, and then for Outlook and after that Aleph publications approached and said that they read the article and the publishers feel that now all of my ideas should come in the form of a book. I wasn’t sure I was ready because I felt that although I’ve been practicing a very interesting life, I won’t be able to keep it in a book. So, I decided that if I come out with a book, it won’t be about me. Also, I think there were many stories which were full of courage, compassion, kindness, that they deserved to be out there through my book. 

And I also felt that the practice should be talked about since it is a taboo in our society, and everyone wants to escape from it but they all feel it. But like heteronormativity, monoamory has such a strong hold in our society, in terms of its ethical, morality etc., that nobody can share what they actually feel. So, there are only two things that can happen when we can’t share our emotions: you either chest or live in denial. And then comes a mixture of shame, morality and guilt. So, the intent of my book is to make people feel normal and acknowledged in this judgemental society. 

How does jealousy operate in both monogamous and polygamous relationships? Also, how should one approach and settle with a society that’s conditioned to jealousy?

Jealousy becomes one of the least and most talked topics in our world. But we do not address the core of it and it is my favourite thing to talk about. Mostly, because I, myself, have been a supremely jealous human being. I used to be very egoistic and I had a supreme self-esteem. My pride also used to get hurt very easily. And that’s why you can understand anybody who has been like this, for them jealousy is a myth. We must understand, when we talk about jealousy, 90% of the time we talk in a relationship-based world of love and sex. But actually, if you see, jealousy is there among friends, siblings, parents, and many other forms of relationships. It is not an emotion restricted to just conjugal partners or those who are romantically or sexually involved with each other. But we don’t talk about jealousy in all the relationships of our lives. So, we have to understand first that this is an emotion that permeates our life in many ways. So, a husband or a partner can be jealous of his wife or partner because of the friendship and intimacy they share. We need to find the cause of jealousy and when you peel the layers and you realize that it has so much to do with you rather than the other person. It is to do with your own insecurities, fear of abandonment, and also with your sense that you have lost in a competition. From our childhood, our parents used to feel happy when we would win a prize and we start feeling that our self-worth is connected to winning something. So, we see losing someone to another person is a primary cause of jealousy, and it takes a heinous turn when we start feeling bad about ourselves. Jealousy is a manifestation of our own insecurities. 

In India, polyamorous individuals are perceived as sex addicts or simply, nymphomaniacs. You elucidate how polyamory also only lives longer than many other mental dynamics because of the existence of love. Could you share a few insights with our readers about how having multiple partners intensifies love more than extinguishing it?

To begin with, I define polyamory as a relationship of love with more than one individual, at a time, with or without sexual intimacy. Because the latter is just one aspect of our romantic love. In the polyamorous community, there are so many people who are aromantic or asexual. There are also people who are sexual as well but they do not have a sexual relationship with all their partners. Some of their partners may also be platonic. So, sex is just one of the many intimacies that we talk about. Sometimes even physical intimacy can happen without sexual intimacy. You can be physically close to a person but may not have any sexual desire. 

So, these are actual examples that are there around us. About the longevity of love, I think in any relationship whether it is poly or mono, the longevity depends a lot on how you respond to each other’s changing over a period of time. We all grow and become different with time and experiences. We change the why’s and how’s of our desire. Those relationships which can accomodate for all those changes and growth remain. And those that cannot accommodate the growth and changes, they fall apart. I can’t say for sure that polyamory is more sustainable than monoamory. 

But what I can say with utter honesty is that when we have polyamorous relationships we are not bothered about what will last, will it last and all. What we are more focused about is what will be the quality of this relationship while it is there. So, in monoamory we talk about ‘till death do us apart’, and I don’t think we make these statements in polyamory. But what is thought of more, and most people I’ve spoken to even, is that what matters most is the quality of love and lust. I had relationships of a long time (10 years, 15 years, 18 years), and in my experience I can say that the capability of adjusting with changes always makes relationships sustainable.

Books on polyamory from the West have given us enough understanding on this practice. But, as Indians, most of us have culturally failed to relate to them. Why do you think that the knowledge of polyamory in the West fails to become the bridge for Indians and many other societies of South Asian countries?

I won’t say that they fail to explain. The first book that I read on polyamory was The Ethical Slut by Hardy and Easton. The problem is books that are written in the UK or the USA, are written in the context, in the social, economic and political context, of those countries. And therefore, the relationship with family, community and how privacy and public life is seen are very different in those countries than our own. What I needed to say is that India needed a book that talks about polyamory by keeping the Indian realities in mind. So, I’ll give you a couple of realities that are different. In India, we never leave our home. A little string is always attached to our abode. In India, we look after our parents. It’s a given. Often our grand-parents live with us. 

So, our homes are smaller and they are full of people. In domestic life, we hardly have privacy and even when more and more people have started living alone, yet they still have to keep in mind a certain desire or reason to go back to home. Like I live in my building, and my mother lives in the adjacent one. So, I cannot ask for private space where she is not available. So, I think these things about family and home are very typical to India or most South-Asian countries. Secondly, the idea of community is also divided by caste, class and religion have a huge influence in our lives, though many of us are trying to get out of these hierarchies’ and boundaries. Even then most of India, lives within the rules made by these communities. It is also another thing that’s very peculiar to India and any kind of life that challenges these boundaries are more difficult here then they are elsewhere. The third thing revolves around the idea of privacy in the South-Asian countries which is very different from the West. Here any random person is going to ask you about your marriage and pregnancy. And they think it is alright to ask since it is coming from the origin of concern. So, the idea of privacy in your personal and public life is very alien. The luxury of privacy is missing and it’s a privileged concept. So, practicing polyamory in the Indian context is very difficult and it comes with a certain sense of privilege and that’s why I criticized the Western books in my book. 

Indian holy texts, especially Hinduism, have subscribed to polyamorous relationships. It has also given space for polyandry and many other non-monogamous practices. What led to the downfall of the free minds of India? How are its communities appropriating monogamy using the same texts which also speak positively about non-monogamy?

The idea of morality is primarily responsible for the downfall. To have a certain control or power over people has always been the weapon of the powerful. And controlling sexual need or exploration has always been the ultimate way to overpower a community and its freedom. Also, the influx of colonial powers and capitalism  have changed the way India used to think. So, if you go back to the origin of monogamy it started when human beings began possessing property and there was a need to transfer the property needed to go for progeny which can be identified with a singular identity. 

From swinger clubs to underground clubs, the West and many places of India have established and given room to the concept of polyamory. Do you think with the rising volatility of extremism, polyamory would be acknowledged in the open? Also, how should partners in a monogamous relationship approach polyamory if there is a tinge of its desire?

In India, there are swinger clubs and underground clubs, as well. But swinger clubs do not have to be necessarily about polyamory. They can also be about just wanting to have sexual intimacies with more than one person. What has already happened in India is that most of the dating applications that the younger people use have the option to express that they are polyamorous. There are support groups who meet knowing that they are polyamorous and therefore, they can date each other. So, these things are already there but it may not be right on your face but one can easily find it in the dating apps. There is an overlap between the kink and polyamorous community but there are also communities which are there for other kinds of sexual explorations and those need not be about polyamory. Some can also be unsafe. One has to be very conscious of what he/she is getting into because not everything is safe. So, trusted people should be always kept in mind when exploration is the need. 

Could you recommend five of your favourite books (fiction and nonfiction) on understanding love, human relationships and desire?

The Ethical Slut

All about Love by Bell Hooks

Babarnama by A.S. Beveridge

Dozakhnama by Rabishankar Bal and translated by Arunava Sinha 

Short Stories of Ismat Chugtai 

What do you think about our feminist magazine, Usawa Literary Review? 

I must say, I didn’t know about Usawa, and I got to know about it when you got in touch with me. Then I went and read the write-ups you people deal with and I absolutely loved the poetry. I loved how Babitha has written  the introduction of the poetry section. I think they are very astutely chosen. Then I read more and I think such literary magazines are so few now in India because you are dealing with topics which the media and many other magazines are scared to deal with. I absolutely loved the Usawa Literary Review.