INTERVIEWEE: Priyanka Dubey, Journalist and Writer
INTERVIEWER: Kabir Deb, Interview Editor, Usawa Literary Review
KD: Hey Priyanka! Hope you’re doing well. It is a pleasure to have you with Usawa Literary Review. How’s life treating you?
Hi Kabir, I am doing well. Thank you for having me for this conversation with Usawa Literary Review. I am in a bit of transit mode- physically between cities and mentally between writing projects. Besides that, I am all fine. I hope you are doing well too.
KD: Your book “No Nation for Women” speaks about women from every part of our country. In the Gen-Z language, patriarchy and violence is a PAN India language. How does a man get subscribed to its bits and parts? Also what, in general, makes it so normal?
A lot of this ‘subscribing’ has to do with our historical social and cultural conditioning. As a conservative South Asian society, a large part of what we broadly call as ‘Indian Culture’, has been thriving with sustained elements of patriarchy. And this has been happening for decades across religions as well as regions. This conditioning starts right from the birth. Think of female feticide which is still rampant in many parts of India. Now, contrast the celebrations and incessant desire for a male child with the sadness and quiet which grips most Indian families after a girl is born. According to my limited reporting experience, the discrimination continues after birth too. There is discrimination at every level: education, clothing, the kind of work opportunities (if any) given and even nutrition provided by the family. The education and nutrition of the male child is given priority over all other members of the family. This is because of the centuries old patriarchal conditioning which has positioned the male child as the sole inheritor/bread winner and protector of the family unit. This further leads to segregation of work based on gender roles, which in turn, reinforces gender stereotypes. As I write this, the irony of me repeating the nitty-gritty of the whole patriarchal ecosystem in 2024, which I first started understanding in 2011, is not lost upon me. Its almost darkly comical how, on the name of tradition and culture, our society keeps on moving in the vicious circle of patriarchy which keeps feeding on itself. Boys growing up in this culture are made of feel of their entitlement and special status firstly by their families – mostly mothers. Indian mothers who keep running behind their sons with a plate full of food, spoon-feeding them till they are adults. Contrary to girls, cooking skills and home chores are never thought of as an essential adulting skill for boys. On the other hand, girls are taught to takeover the ‘spoon-feeding’ role for their husbands from the mother-in-law. And the whole cycle keeps repeating itself. This has been happening for many years without any resistance. So much so that it has unfortunately normalised to the extent of turning into Indian society’s second skin.
KD: How important a role do our schools play in converting a child into a patriarch? If I am asking this, then I have to ask how does a teacher induce the subtle ideas of toxicity in a child?
During my school days, girls were made to sit and learn embroidery in the SUPW class while boys were taken to playground and taught gardening. Very soon, my mind started questioning why were girls not taught gardening and why was learning how to sew one’s shirt button not important to boys? Did I loved learning to raise a rose plant any less? Also, football was only played by boys though girls could play basketball. Later, I initiated efforts with our PT teacher which eventually led to formation of the first girls football team in our school. I was in class 7th then. But now things are improving for the better. These days, good schools try to instil the values of equality in students, at-least on the face of it. This might not be true for government schools in rural areas though. As the trench between haves and have-nots widens, the number of multiple India(s) which exist in this country at any given point, also increases. Hence, as we move away from the metro cities, the condition of schools also starts becoming deplorable. Though I would like to add, sometimes Indian school teachers surprise us by putting all their might in coaching a talented student from challenging background. When they come in news, such success stories do melt our hearts. But such cases are few and occur almost as an oddity. The fate of a rural or provincial student without generational wealth, any running source of money or social capital is pretty much in the dark even today.
KD: Women have played a pivotal role in strengthening patriarchy too. So, we do see women from the generation right before us, normalising a man’s act of violence and oppression. Is it just a result of conditioning or is there something else which still comes in the way of equality?
Mostly it is conditioning. Coupled with a stockholm syndrome like faulty idea of romantic love which has been popularised by irresponsible mass media over decades. More than often, the financial independence of the woman is also compromised in such cases – which further weakens her self belief and her social capacity to take a stand for herself. That is why I cannot stress enough on the need for every woman to be financially independent. It is the key to a hundred lock put up by centuries of patriarchy.
KD: Patriarchy changes its shape from one religion to another. In various kinds of addas and discourses, we do find someone justifying patriarchy using religious texts of various religions. How would you like to address this particular situation where men use religion to cement the fundamentals of patriarchy?
I have maintained from the longest time that at their very core, all religions thrive on the subjugation of women. Be it Hindu or Islam or Christianity or any other religion – they thrive by creating environment of distress where women are portrayed as ‘honour’ of a certain community or clan or religious group and tell us that in order to protect their honour, women need to be protected. Now under the pretence of this protection, they corner women into subjugation. I always say this and I cannot stress on this enough: women around the world need to be careful and alert about how religion is limiting them- whatever that religion might be. We have gone through the Sabarimala as well as Hijab debates and while these are complex issues, I would like to state that women need to understand how religion is being used as a tool to limit and control them. Because we will be overcome it only after we understand it.
KD: How is the patriarchy of the present generation with AI and all different from the one that you grew up around?
The digital space has only added to the vulnerabilities of women- and has done so in multiple ways. As a woman journalist and writer, I have faced brutal attacks for my anti-establishment reporting by trolls who mostly hide behind anonymous social media handles. But trolls are not the only problem for women who are vocal and opinionated on the internet. There is a whole anti-feminist movement of sorts, gaining momentum on the internet everyday- all on the name of men’s rights. As far as AI is concerned, our world has surely all changed since its arrival. More so, the world of women. Deep fake has become common and it has become easier to misuse photographs and videos of women and other marginalized communities including LGBTQ. With weak cyber laws and a police force which desperately needs gender sensitization trainings, the future doesn’t look very hopeful for women.
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KD: Patriarchy is associated with power. If we go by this perspective, how do the people in power (political) use this tool to keep the population under control?
In my book titled ‘No Nation For Women: Reportage on Rape from India, the World’s largest Democracy, I have examined the power aspect of patriarchy in detail across multiple chapters. Post Independent India has seen numerous cases of politicians using their power to protect the perpetrators of crime against women, using their influence to derail police investigations and threaten or buy witnesses. Besides this backdoor influencing, I have also documented cases where elected politicians have actually committed grave crimes like rape. In such cases, the victim is up against sort of a mountain of hurdles. We see accused politicians doing everything in their power to discredit and delegitimise the narrative of the victim. Putting false cases against the victim, threatening her, harassing the family and trying to physically harm the family are some of the most predictable ways in which victim is constantly bullied. Then there are cases in which some relative of a known politician is accused of crime against women. A similar pattern of bullying and trying to silence the victim follows in such cases too. A good example of a politically powerful man using all his might to protect himself is the case of self-claimed godman Asaram. I covered the case for around 8 years and saw this man using all his social-political and economical clout to discredit the case of the victim. The minor victim and her family fought a harrowing battle and we all saw numerous attacks on the crucial witnesses who were to testify against Asaram. Three witnesses lost their lives in these attacks while one went missing. So, all those at the helm of power, use that power brutally and with absolute impunity against women.
KD: In your book, the gender disparity and violence in the Left and Right brigade of the countryfinds clarity. I can understand how patriarchy feels safe amidst the rightists. Could you shed some light on how it gets to grow around people who believe in an ideology that keeps equality in the forefront?
You are right, patriarchal attitude does not shocks me when it comes from the right. But during my reporting, especially in what are traditionally considered as sort of left-leaning states like West Bengal and Tripura, I saw that the left is no better. The quest for political power overpowers all ideas of equality that the left says it stands for. In West Bengal particularly, both TMC and Left have disappointed me. In their desire to maintain their political influence and ‘clean image’, many times cases of crimes against women are brushed under the carpet systematically. While in states like Tripura, I have documented cases where crime against women happens in order to maintain the political influence of a certain party. The extremely regimental and hierarchical nature of these both left and right in India plays a huge part in pushing them to brush the issue of gender violence under the carpet rather then addressing it openly.
KD: What are the five books that you would like to recommend for the new age readers of India? Also which is that one book you feel has changed your life in many ways?
Well, this is a difficult question. But I will try.
I think new age readers of India can all start by reading and keeping a copy of ‘The Constitution of India’ with them always. Our constitution is one of the most beautiful documents that I have ever read and it never fails to give me hope. So, lets start from the constitution. The second important book which is a must read is ‘Annihilation of Caste’ by B R Ambedkar. Third I think we should all read important mythological and religious texts like The Mahabharata (which includes Bhagwat Geeta) and Ramayana. One should also try for a good translation of The Quran and The Guru Granth Sahib to read. Whether you are an atheist or a believer, these are important books which are integral to understanding India. For learning about the Hindu texts like The Mahabharata, the Pune based Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute also runs some excellent online lecture courses at nominal rates. I am not sure if we have similar credible online facilities for learning about The Quran and The Guru Granth Sahib though. At-least not in my limited knowledge. One should read writers of Indian epics like Bhasa and Kalidas. One should read great Indian poets like Meer Taqi Meer and Mirza Ghalib. One should read Tagore and Sharatchandra to begin with. I think all this is a must and we often ignore important works from our own country for a Kafka or a Proust. Well, I am fan of Kafka and Proust. One should definitely read them. But we must not forget our very own greats like Meer and Kalidas.
It’s very difficult for me to pick any one book which has changed my life because there are several such books. To begin with, The Constitution Of India is one. The dairies of Nirmal Verma titled ‘Dhund se Uthti Dhun’ is one. And I think I have read and felt protected and understood by the dairies of Susan Sontag. I am alive because of these books. Also, conversations/ interview books by novelist David Foster Wallace protected me for a very long time. And a whole lot of Hindi and English Poetry. Good poets and save your life. One should start one’s day with a good poem every moring.
KD: At last, what do you think about the Usawa Literary Review?
I think the young folks at Usawa Literary Review are doing a fabulous job by not only creating but also sustaining a platform like this which directly engages with our culture as well as country with seriousness, courage and sincerity. Like this interview- I was happily amazed by the range of depth of the questions. Also, I love the production and design of the website. Its no nonsense, clean yet very effective. My thanks to each one of you at team ULR!
Kabir Deb is the interview editor of Usawa Literary Review.
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