KD: Hello Sravana and Anya! It’s an honor to have you onboard. You mention in the book, which is also true in the case of Tantra, that energy is serpentine, especially Kundalini. Could you shed some light on the reptilian idea coalescing with universal energy?
SBV & AF: This is a great question! Serpents are one of those rare symbols that are almost truly universal. You might even say that global ideas of Kundalini, which blend concepts from Asia and Europe, would not have crystallized in this particular way were it not for this shared imagery of the serpent. But, while there are certainly common themes, each culture also understands the serpent differently and—more importantly—tells different stories.
South Asian and European myths can often be traced back to a common Indo-European source, and of course, there have been millennia of interaction and mutual influence. If we look at serpents in the Vedas, especially the tale of Vritra, we can find analogues to this in many European mythologies. These stories often link the serpent with both death and immortality. In particular, the serpent is often the guardian (or the thief) of the elixir of immortality. Of course, immortality is precisely what Kundalini promises, as she consumes the physical body to transform it into something transcendent.
But, it’s worth noting that, while in South Asian traditions serpents in the form of Nagas are often close companions to the gods—think of Vishnu reclining on Shesha, or Siva wearing Vasuki like a sacred thread—Western ideas of the serpent have been bound up with the Biblical story of humanity’s fall from heaven. And so, on the global stage, we argue that this sense of the serpent as something dangerous and potentially transgressive has contributed to the anxiety surrounding Kundalini we see today.
KD: Hinduism, especially the one driven by Brahminical ideas, divide the divine into masculine and feminine form. In the prologue of the book, you negate the idea and mention that enlightenment moves beyond all binaries, which in turn makes Kundalini as non-binary. What is the importance of dissolution of the binary form of divinity? Also, what was the necessity to split the existence into two forms and then introducing Kundalini which negates the entire idea?
SBV & AF: Here, it’s very important to remember that when we talk about the divine masculine and feminine, we are not talking about our ordinary, social ideas of gender. This can become even more confusing when we think of Shiva and Shakti as deities, appearing in a typically male and female form. But in the non-dual traditions that emphasize Kundalini awakening as a feature of enlightenment, these principles are ultimately two sides of a single reality, which is pure consciousness. Shiva (the masculine) is the luminous element that allows consciousness to shine forth, and Shakti (the feminine) is the blissful element that allows consciousness to be aware of itself.
These traditions understand the process of creation as the play of Shakti. Consciousness differentiates itself into more and more aspects, until it becomes minds and matter, and all the things of our world, which is full of binaries. And, in some sense, a binary is necessary so that consciousness can fully experience itself. A subject requires an object. Kundalini is that aspect of Shakti that, having arrived at the lowest point of creation, most distant from the source, turns around and begins the climb back upwards. But, in the end, since all of reality is one, Kundalini (or Shakti) is and always has been Shiva. The masculine and the feminine are one, and the one is by definition non-binary.
KD: The narrative of the West on Kundalini is vastly different from the East. At the same time, their approach towards alchemy, which is rooted to Kundalini, has contrasting symbols. Do you think that society plays a significant role in the alteration of a philosophy? Also, how should we approach the ‘multiplicity of sources’ when the entire world is focused on making a linear concept of the divine?
SBV & AF: The example of alchemy is a great one! This is where we really see how two systems can have so much in common, but a few details can make all the difference. Both South Asian and European alchemy, insofar as they’re about chemistry, rely on the interaction of mercury and sulphur, and they map these chemical elements onto all sorts of symbolic correspondences like the sun and the moon, as well as the masculine and feminine, among others. But, while the symbols are more or less the same, how the pairs are correlated with one another is reversed in key ways. In South Asia, mercury is correlated with the moon, and it is masculine, representing pure undifferentiated consciousness. Whereas in European alchemy, mercury is the feminine element and, while it also represents an undifferentiated “source,” it is often understood as chaos.
Now, it is easy to see how this feminine chaos, especially in a patriarchal society, might take on negative connotations that are very different from a masculine pure consciousness. This is not to say that South Asian society is somehow more feminist than Europe. For example, in South Asian philosophies, the active and creative principle of Shakti often becomes identified with Maya, which is seen as illusory and even deceitful. In short, the feminine still tends to get denigrated, no matter what symbols it’s associated with.
But the more important point here is that, when it comes to a “multiplicity” of sources, the split is not really between East and West. What we just described above is just one tradition, and the key thing to remember is that both South Asian and European philosophies have historically been very diverse.
KD: Neurological science tells us that the mind’s chaos mirrors the universe’s complexities. In the first chapter of the book, you mention how the sun and the moon represent life and ‘an elusive immortal nectar’, respectively. Yet many texts of Hinduism approach the same from a superior perspective without viewing the universe in the physical realm of a human being to establish God as an unattainable and unreachable presence. What gave birth to this contradiction? How can our body consciously cultivate this existence of oneness?
SBV & AF: This is a good place to follow up on the point we just made about how all cultures are internally very diverse. Hindu traditions, in particular, can really differ in how they imagine the world, especially when it comes to the question of God. We could talk about Krishna, or Shiva, or the many faces of Devi here, but even within each of these worldviews, we often find a split between those who view our world and the divine as one reality versus two.
Traditions that emphasize bhakti, or devotion, understandably tend to place more importance on some sort of difference between the human and the divine. A devotional relationship requires two parties, even when it’s not strictly hierarchical. The key in non-dual traditions, like those focused on Kundalini, however, is to ultimately move beyond even this relationship.
KD: Tantra can only be experienced through practice and the activity should not break since a sudden halt in energy can disrupt our mental and physical space. In a patriarchal space, how can a practice that deals with uplifting and balancing energies be implemented? At the same time, you also mention that the feminine energy should be awakened in a practitioner’s body. Doesn’t it address the same idea of duality which Kundalini negates? And is Sakti drawn inherently towards the internal dynamics of a human being? How does it get expressed in a human being so that the external world gets to see a change in personality, thoughts and lifestyle?
SBV & AF: The key to these practices, in the end, is to reverse our socialization process. Although the practices are aimed at “awakening” the energy in the body, the truth is that the energy is always already there. So it is more a matter of transforming the mind and body so that our socialized ego is not constricting our relationship to reality.
But it’s also true that society can make this difficult, especially when it comes to how practices might be implemented in a patriarchal space. For instance, it has historically been very common (and remains so today) that women are not encouraged to cultivate their own practice in the same way that men are. Because people assume that the feminine divine is the same as social ideas of gender (which it is not), they are able to say that women already embody this principle, and so there is no further need to cultivate it. Instead, women become “assistants” for men.
But this fundamentally misses the point since the feminine energy of Shakti is present in male and female bodies alike. Both men and women embody this energy, but this also means that both men and women are socialized to “forget” their true nature, making practice necessary for both.
KD: We are living at a time where intercultural and interreligious juxtaposition is seen as a crime. It is not something new. The gene pool of the world severely reduced since the people in power chose to accept devolution. In this book, you make the West meet East even in the presence of differences. Why do you take this into concern? Since purity has always been the focus of every tradition, how do you think Kundalini enhances it by breaking the orthodoxy and conditional norms of humanity?
SBV & AF: It’s true that traditions tend to guard their boundaries. But this tends to be more a rhetorical tactic than an actual reality. The truth is, the boundaries of traditions have always been fluid. Today, in addition to religious nationalism, we see this impulse to maintain “purity” come up in the context of debates over cultural appropriation. This is especially relevant when it comes to global practices like Kundalini and yoga more generally.
Without dismissing the realities of colonialism and orientalism, the point we emphasize in our book is that purity has always been an illusion. And, while unequal power dynamics can certainly result in exploitation, when it comes to Kundalini, there has been no shortage of South Asian gurus who have very enthusiastically participated in the exchange. It is also worth noting that, often, these gurus have been men of higher caste, and so power dynamics within South Asian society, in addition to simply the ones between “East” and “West” must be taken into account.
KD: In a text, the yogic tantra was concentrated to a specific section of the society. Scholars of Tantra provide enough reasons to have a master while practicing the tantric activities since they are tied to the human body. You mention in the book that one can either feel the serpentine energy lurking within or one cannot. How can we cultivate this energy within us and how different is the practice from the text? Since masters too have their own ideas and methods, is the understanding going to vary depending on the master, the disciple and the master-disciple dynamics?
SBV & AF: It is very difficult to learn an embodied practice from a text alone. This does not mean that one needs a single “master,” but it certainly helps to have a teacher (or several) and a community of practice. That said, what we see with Kundalini over the course of the twentieth century is that it becomes a product in the global marketplace of spirituality. Not only will different gurus prescribe different methods, but they also compete with one another, arguing that their method is the best. This understandably created confusion among practitioners. The fact of the matter is that these practices are very personal, and the same method is unlikely to work for everyone.
KD: Kundalini has always focused on bringing a balance between the masculine and feminine energy thriving inside a human being. At the same time, society has also adhered delicacy and tenderness as feminine traits whereas strength and glory as masculine. Kundalini, on the other hand, fumes the feminine energy as both mentally and physically strong as well as violent, depending on the situation. Could you please enlighten our readers that by the school of Tantra which traits are considered as feminine and which are masculine? Also, how does Kundalini dissolve discrimination primarily on the basis of physical energies?
SBV & AF: Here, it’s worth coming back to the idea that the divine masculine and feminine are not the same as social notions of gender. And even the more conventional social ideals can differ. Consider, for instance, that while there are certainly goddesses who embody feminine “delicacy and tenderness,” there are also fierce goddesses such as Durga and Kali.
Within tantra, the feminine is associated with the creative energy of Shakti. So, the divine feminine is simply the aspect of ultimate reality that is active.
When it comes to balance, perhaps the most useful image to evoke here is the one of Ardhanarishvar, the deity who embodies both masculine and feminine. Kundalini is a “feminine” energy, but it’s important to remember that it is equally present in the bodies of both men and women.
KD: You mention in the text that Kundalini being very complex by itself could not be explained with ease. But if you have to address this philosophy to the common readers of this world, how would you project its core? Also, how important is the practice in a patriarchal society?
SBV & AF: A core aspect of Kundalini practice, within the non-dual tantric traditions where it originates, is to dissolve the structures that society uses to condition us into all sorts of binaries, including the social understandings of masculine and feminine. Patriarchy is based not only on the idea that the genders are fundamentally different and separate, but that one should naturally hold power over the other. Non-dual philosophies completely break down this idea. If the masculine and feminine are ultimately one, and if all of us participate equally in this reality, then patriarchy becomes nonsensical.
KD: As writers and academicians, could you recommend five of your favorite books on various schools of philosophy for our readers?
SBV & AF: Sure! Here are a few:
Autobiography of Yogi, Parmahansa Yogananda
Yoga as Embodied Resistance A Feminist Lens on Caste, Gender, and Sacred Resilience in Yoga History, by Anjali Rao
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/790229/yoga-as-embodied-resistance-by-anjali-rao
The Matter of Wonder: Abhinavagupta’s Panentheism and the New Materialism, by Loriliai Biernacki
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-matter-of-wonder-9780197643075?cc=us&lang=en&
Yoga – Anticolonial Philosophy: An Action-Focused Guide to Practice by Shyam Ranganathan
Religion and the Philosophy of Life by Gavin Flood